- Fu (Pawn)
- Kyosha (Lance)
- Kiema (Knight)
- Gin (Silver General)
- Kin (Gold General)
- Kaku (Bishop)
- Hisha (Rook)
- Gyoku (King)
By popularity of use:
A % E % I % O % U %
4 50% 1 12% 4/5 50% 2/3 25% 3/4 37%
B % C % D % F % G %
0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 1 12% 2 25%
H % J % K % L % M %
2 25% 0 0% 5 62% 0 0% 1 12%
N % P % Q % R % S %
2 25% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 2/3 25%
T % V % W % X % Y %
0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 2 25%
Z %
01 0%
62% K:
50% A, i, k:
37% U, a, i, k: Kaku,
25% O, g, h, n, s, y, u, a, i, k: Gyoku, Hisha, Kin, Gin, Kyosha,
12% E, f, m, o, g, h, n, s, y, u, a, i, k: Fu, Kiema
0% C, D, J, L, P, Q, R, T, V, W, X, Z
Conclusions
50% is the K, i, a subset which can combine as Aki (Autumn), Aik, Kia, Kai (times), Iak, Ika in short forms. Or Ki (tree), Ai (love), Ak in subsets.
37% is the appearance of Kaku (Bishop) in language use. Its likely this is the first human piece name known to the developer of the language of the game implying it was inside a monastary.
25% sees a massive language surge of five piece names: kyosha (lancer), gin (silver general), kin (gold general), hisha (rook), gyoku (king).
12% marks the introduction of two final pieces to the game board: fu (pawns) meaning until this point peasants were not considered part of the battlefield or the game; and the other being the Knight. The knight is made of the combination of new letters e and m- likely as me (eye) and the much older letters k, i, and a which can be combined in alternative ways.
Suizo (drunk elephant) changes the popularity of use to:
55% K, i: ki (tree)
44% A, u, k, i: Kaku (bishop)
33% S, o, a, u, k, i:
22% g, h, n, y, s, o, a, u, k, i: gyoku, hisha, kin, gin, kyosha
11% Z, m, f, e, g, h, n, y, s, o, a, u, k, i: fu, kiema, Suizo.
It suggests that pawns were added last to the game board, and knight evolved from an older piece (and possibly a different game) and drunk elephant as well.
Update: eliminating fu, kiema, and suizo as 'modern' pieces leaves the players with nine pieces on a 9×9 board.
Original shogi should be played each with:
- Gyoku (King ×1)
- Hisha (Rook ×1)
- Kaku (Bishop ×1)
- Gin (silver general ×2)
- Kin (gold general ×2)
- Kyosha (lance ×2)
A % E % I % O % U %
3 50% 0 0% 3 50% 2 33% 2 33%
B % C % D % F % G %
0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 2 33%
H % J % K % L % M %
2 33% 0 0% 4 66% 0 0% 0 0%
N % P % Q % R % S %
2 33% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 2 33%
T % V % W % X % Y %
0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 2 33%
Z %
0 0%
B % C % D % F % G %
0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 2 33%
H % J % K % L % M %
2 33% 0 0% 4 66% 0 0% 0 0%
N % P % Q % R % S %
2 33% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 2 33%
T % V % W % X % Y %
0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 2 33%
Z %
0 0%
Popularity of use:
66% K:
50% A, i, k:
33% O, u, g, h, n, s, y, a, i, k: kyosha, kin, gin, kaku, hisha, gyoku
The original set of nine comes in at 33% popularity of use for all pieces.
Update: a further consideration of shogi
Shogi Game Pieces & Variant States
1. Osho (reigning king general)
2. Gyokusho (challenging jeweled general)
3. Hisha (rook/flying chariot)
4. Ryuo (promoted rook/dragon)
5. Kakugyo (bishop/'angle mover')
6. Ryuma (promoted bishop/dragon horse)
7. Kinsho (gold general)
8. Ginsho (silver general)
9. Narigin (promoted silver)
10. Keima (cassia horse)
11. Narikei (promoted cassia)
12. Kyosha (incense chariot)
13. Narikyo (promoted incense chariot)
14. Fukyo (Pawn/foot soldier)
15. Tokin (promoted pawn)
Alphabet by use
A % E % I % O % U %
8 53% 2 13% 8 53% 10 66% 5 33%
B % C % D % F % G %
0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 1 6% 4 26%
H % J % K % L % M %
6 40% 0 0% 8 53% 0 0% 2 13%
N % P % Q % R % S %
6 40% 0 0% 0 0% 5 33% 6 40%
T % V % W % X % Y %
1 6% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 7 46%
Z %
0 0%
Popularity by use
66% O:
53% A, I, K, O:
46% Y, A, I, K, O:
40% S, N, H, Y, A, I, K, O: Kyosha, Osho, Hisha, Kinsho, Narikyo
33% R, U, S, N, H, Y, A, I, K, O: Ryuo,
26% G, R, U, S, N, H, Y, A, I, K, O: Gyokusho, Kakugyo, Ginsho, Narigin,
13% M, E, G, R, U, S, N, H, Y, A, I, K, O: Ryuma, Keima, Narikei,
6% F, T, M, E, G, R, U, S, N, H, Y, A, I, K, O: Fuhyo, Tokin,
0% B, C, D, J, L, P, Q, V, W, X, Z
Conclusions
The earliest battlefield appearing at 40% is the king, gold general, and three chariot pieces (flying chariot, incense chariot, and promoted incense chariot). At 33% we get the addition of the dragon (promoted flying chariot).
At 26% we see the introduction of the jeweled king, Bishop (angle mover), silver general, and promoted silver general. After that, more pieces are added to the game at 13%: promoted bishop (dragon horse), cassia horse, promoted cassia. And then at 6% pawns (foot soldier), and promoted pawns are added.
Other Information:
The Game Name Shogi is introduced at 26%. This marks a shift in the battlefield from the use of chariots employing wings (blades or similar opponent injury device), incense (obscuring smoke/respiratory attack aromatics) and the hero pieces king and gold general to the inclusion of the Jeweled King (Gyok-*: a surname occuring in indonesia, nigeria, and hungary), and both silver general, and promoted silver general.
*Note: for the origin of the jeweled king see Hanvueng: The Goose King and the Ancestral King: An Epic from Guangxi.
The missing piece, Suizo (drunk elephant), was introduced at 6% marking the end of the game language development phase along with the pawn though then removed for the modern game.
Ban is the name of the Game Board. Like the pawn and elephant it comes in at 6% (the end of the game language development phase). Effectivly this marks the formalization of the Shogi game.
Its obvious that the shogi game predates the introduction of more modern 'chess pieces' such as elephant and pawn, while formalization of the game, its pieces, and rules occurs after.
Cite your sources that claim languages increase in their phonetic inventory as time progresses, because that is a huge claim you simply accept as fact without supporting evidence. There are many examples that contradict this, as was pointed out in the Reddit thread. S
ReplyDeletewhat makes you think that you have the ability to completely contradict the documented history of shogi, despite the fact you clearly don't know Japanese, don't play shogi, and aren't very well educated on linguistics in general?
Also, even if your methodology were to make sense, it's not necessarily true that you can judge how old the sounds are to the language just based on frequency of use. What if a new sound is invented that replaces an old sound that was previously in the language? It could become quite common very quickly despite being completely new.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore you seem to be making a big assumption about the age of shogi. What makes you think it didn't come about well after these sounds existed? Or what if the names of the pieces have changed over time?
ReplyDeleteI can make these assumptions based on the fact that not all component pieces have the same tier percentage of introduction in the development of language. Once the three actual chess pieces are removed from the game, the remaining pieces describe an older battlefield that predates knights, pawns, and elephants. And that battlefield uses a mix of chariots, and hero pieces.
ReplyDeleteIf I were to assume that all the pieces appear at the same time, the constructing dictionary is more familiar with Bishop as a word than king or general implying the language describing the game was developed in a monastary.
You know what's hilarious? The Japanese for that piece doesn't even mean bishop! That's a term taken from chess to describe the game in the west since it moves in the same way. The kanji on the piece, 角, simply means angle, which describes it's movement along the diagonals. You took it at face value without context.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the term king is already used in the game for your main piece that you need to protect!
ReplyDeleteThe actual words for bishop in the religious sense would be 司教 or 主教.
ReplyDeleteThanks for that.
ReplyDeletecorner: コーナー, 角, 隅, コーナ, 一角, 片隅
angle: 角度, 角, アングル, 観点, 看点
horn: 角, 警笛, 角笛, 喇叭
So no, it doesnt just mean angle. While it has altered its state to assume an identity as the western chess piece bishop, given the 'horn' option its likely a 'bard' given the role played by music on the battle field, or more likely 'Archer' using a bow made of horn.
As I said the removal of the chess pieces leaves you with a battlefield strategy game that might be the precursor to chess. It exhibits the use of 'incense chariots' to create obscuring smoke on the battlefield, hero pieces, and small combat units. This could be kurgans, protoindoeuropeans, whoever.
It's not "horn" because then the character would be read as "tsuno" when spoken, but it isn't, it's "Kaku".
ReplyDeleteIn the context of the game I mean.
DeleteEven given that, that's a massive leap in logic just to defend your idea.
ReplyDeleteAlso shogi pieces actually have two kanji. The full name of the bishop piece is 角行, which has the kanji for "angle" and "going". Pretty clear and direct with it's meaning.
ReplyDeleteAnd in chinese 角行 is jiao xing which means 'luckily' and is a persons name. So you might as well consider the possibility that every board piece represented historical figures from a particular battle. Reversed gets you xingjiao as in the shaolin temple in xian which could mean the piece represents the use of martial arts on a battlefield. The name is not going to originally refer to how the object moves, because it represents a specific kind of military unit on a real battlefield. Its entirely likely the interpretation as an 'angle', exists because the modern definition of the word was pulled from the game piece movement to add to the dictionary that built the language. Even Horn might refer to the material used to make the game piece.
ReplyDelete